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Well, I’m excited to be here with you. You know, one question I want to start with. What is I’m just going to jump right in. What’s a unexpected book that you think everyone should read?
I don’t I don’t know that I would say it’s an unexpected book.
Okay. You know, obviously when we’re talking about EOS®, traction is what some people would say is the Bible, which I don’t necessarily refer to it as the Bible, but it is the the founding point.
For me, a pivotal book was Get a Grip.
Okay. Yep. Because it it’s it’s written in a as a fable.
Yeah. And I love the you know Mike Payton, those guys, they put this together. Yeah. And and it was their experiences with their clients.
Sure. Sure. Like hundreds of clients and they put together this fable of here’s what companies experience leadership teams.
Yeah. And I it’s what really solidified my decision to become an implement.
Okay. Okay. Now, in general, do you like are you a fiction fan?
More of a fiction fan. I I I I even though in in EOS® there there’s a lot to learn. There was a it was a fire hose of learning for me. Sure.
To become an imple even though I thought I knew EOS® because I was working I was a leaders, you know, on the leadership team of a company running on EOS®. But once I decided to become an implementer, then I realized how much I didn’t know. Yeah.
And so there was a lot to learn. But I do like fables and fiction.
Yeah. Probably more so.
I was talking to a friend who loves fiction. I I can’t stand fiction. It it it kills my family. Everybody in my family loves fiction. Both of my parents were writers. It it kills everybody. But I’m a big fan of Lencion. You know, I’m a total Lencion dork and I was talking to a friend who runs a marketing agency and he loves fiction and he can’t stand Patrick Lencion’s books
Really because he’s like all all the stories are too obvious all the and I’m like that’s why maybe why I like them.
Yeah. And and they they are they are a little a little bit obvious but it’s because they’re proving a point. They’re showing
They’re really if if they weren’t obvious I don’t think they would make they would have the same impact.
Yeah. Honestly. And Yeah. And that’s that’s that’s very interesting. And and I know people that they do not like
The fables. Yeah. Well, and it’s funny because you know I I know you’ve been in Vistage in the past. I I was in Vistage in the past. I’m a C12 guy now. So don’t judge. I love C12. Shout out to C12. But you know storytelling is a theme that comes up a lot in the whether it’s C12 curriculum or Vistage Speakers or whatever.
Storytelling winds up coming up a lot. H have you ever tried working storytelling into your your work? I I do to a certain extent and and as I get more experience, you know, I’ve been doing this for a year and a half now and the first most implementers will tell you and and it’s like starting any business, the first six months are
It’s a whirlwind and you kind of lose track of time and you’re trying to ramp up and all of those things. So, it’s it’s been kind of a year of really digging in. But as I create those experiences, storytelling becomes more and more important. But in our business, we in developing business, we’re not we’re not we don’t sell as much as we storytell.
Yeah. And so it is a big part of it.
Yeah. And and it’s storytelling is much more impactful than telling something
Than telling somebody something. If you just tell them that’s one thing, but if you tell them a story about how it impacted someone else,
Then they can really see how it applies to them.
Sure. Sure. So, it makes a huge impact.
Yeah. Yeah. It’s one of those skills I I want to get better at it.
As do I. As do I.
I’ve got like my my OneNote page with like here are my canonical stories and like trying to write and then memorizing them and all that stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. And and we do the same thing. It’s you know and and it’s interesting because at first you’re borrowing from someone else’s story. Sure.
And then you create your own stories and it’s that’s where it really becomes your storytelling becomes solidified u when you’re not borrowing from someone else’s stories and you can tell your own. Man, it’s interesting cuz like you know, so I I grew up in the church and love the Lord like all all that, but like you know it always felt like and it still does like pastors always had a story. I think less so now may I don’t know if that’s just I go to a different church but like I remember growing up there was like always these amazing stories that the pastor had and like I was always like
Did you borrow that? Like is that did all of that stuff actually happen to you?
Yeah. Yeah. And you always wonder. But yeah, but that’s the beauty of it. You don’t know. I mean, and a story a great story is just a it’s just that it’s a great story and and the most stories I would say there’s a an element of truth and an element of fable, you know, there’s an element of hey, I embellished on this
That I just went and saw the play Big Fish. Okay. So, my father-in-law and and his his partner got my wife, myself, and our kids tickets to Big Fish for Christmas. Which was great. Like, I mean, it’s literally about this. It’s literally about a storyteller that like kind of stretches the truth,
And you never really find out what is true and what isn’t, but it’s a it was a great play. It was a great play.
Yeah, that’s great. And and it is you you can
You can guess. Sure. As we do like with politicians. I mean, it’s like, okay, I don’t know if that’s really true. Yeah. And but there’s always some some degree of embellishment. And then it’s interesting because
The people around you as you tell stories, sometimes they take your stories and and they become their stories.
Yeah. So, yeah, some something’s going off over there. I think somebody’s getting texts. Yeah, I think that’s on the I think it may be on the machine the laptop.
Yeah. And you know people will take their the stories and suddenly you know I I’ve heard people telling stories in my family telling a story as if that was theirs and I was like that was my story
That happened to me and you’re telling it like it happened to you.
And we weren’t together when that happened. So I always find that interesting.
That’s funny. That’s funny. So on stories so you just mentioned so you I I didn’t realize you were so on the leadership team at a company running EOS®. What tell me about that transition. So you’re an implement now right
And we’ll back up in a little bit because people may not know what an implement is. But before we get there what was it like going from working in a company on a leadership team running EOS® to actually working with companies? What was that journey? It’s an interesting journey. I knew as I said you know I knew a lot about EOS®. Yeah. I was blessed that I was not only in a company running on EOS®, but also I was so I got to see things, you know, related to EOS® and how we were doing things, but also I got to I was in a talent strategy firm and my client base those that I was working with and supporting.
Can we can we say the name? Can
Yeah, Titus Talent Strategies.
Okay. I I figured we great firm.
Great firm. Great firm running on EOS®. They support they’re very supportive of EOS®. They do a great job with all levels of positions and they have different options on how you work with them. But and we were kind of working through all of that and how we were going to do those things. But I but my client base was companies running on EOS® as well. And my source of figuring out who my who I wanted to work with were implementers because they they were the ones who had those clients and they knew
That these companies were running on EOS®. I didn’t know because I at that point nobody was advertising we run on EOS® which has become a thing now
And so I worked closely with implementers and that’s really where I started thinking
I I think I might want to do that.
Yeah be an implement you know rather than work in a company that I didn’t own I don’t own I’d rather own my own thing my own practice. Yeah.
And help business owners get what they want from their businesses. And so the transition for me because because of how I operated, how I worked with Titus kind of independently supporting you know in business development but also we were virtual. So I was working from home
And I did a lot of meetings via Zoom. Now, that actually has been a little bit of a difference. I I do work from home more or less, but I go to clients now.
Sure. Sure. And so, I spend more time and it’s it’s fascinating to me because I spend more time now even though I have less clients numbers wise. I spend more time in client spaces in the working directly with them face to face than I did. That’s right. Yeah. Than I did when I was with Titus because my clients were spread around the new the US.
Sure. Do you have I ever told you my Titus story?
You might have but refresh my memory.
Yeah. So so I think it was Margaret
Margaret Larson. Larson. I wanted to say Lawson.
And she is now she she is now she’s married. I think she
Yeah, she just got married last year. Yep.
Yeah. They got a new house, but she’s fantastic. So, she reached out to me and we talked I brought her into an integrators group that I I ran and yeah, she’s she’s awesome. But I had like just kind of when we were meeting and talking a little bit I was doing fundraiser for Jordan Thomas Foundation. Shout out Jordan Thomas Foundation. So they provide prosthetic legs for children.
And my daughter is a JTF kid. So a little near and dear to my heart.
Absolutely. And I was doing fundraising for it in April’s their big fundraising season for families and I had sent it to Margaret and so I hope she this doesn’t piss her off. She actually donated herself which is super awesome. Like didn’t expect that. I was kind of like we just met on Zoom. We talked once here and I was like oh wow like you donated that that’s so sweet. And then she actually forwarded it to I don’t know who, but she’s like, “Oh, I I sent this over to the the crew at Titus. They do a lot of stuff.” And they they wound up being tied with the largest donation for all of my fundraising.
And they are I would say notorious, but they are they are fantastic.
A great thing to be notorious.
That’s right. And we did that whenever there was something that and and and it’s interesting because there would be people like if you were a Titus employee
Yeah. It would be known. I mean you would through conversation and relationship people would know that about you
And the the CEO of Titus, Jonathan Reynolds, he would hear about it. He would catch wind of something. Yeah. And you know something someone was involved with that they were passionate about that they were you know they had a direct connection with
And he would not even wait on a request he would facilitate donating to that cause.
Yeah. On behalf of that employee.
So you’re saying a visionary skipped all of the steps and just
Yeah. Visionary skipped all the steps and we’re doing this. No way.
We’re doing this. Now you know Titus is an interesting case study in EOS® u because the founder of Titus Scott Seaffeld
Yeah. Is now actually the integrator.
Yeah. And Jonathan Reynolds was someone that he hired
In 20 2009 I believe it was.
Yeah. To come in and and develop this practice that was new to us at the time. And I was with Titus back then, a long time ago.
And he recognized Scott in his humility, I would say, and and open-mindedness, he recognized that Jonathan was the true visionary of that practice.
Yeah. And they flipped seats.
That’s insane. And and I don’t even think they flipped seats. I think John Scott went from visionary to integrator and just elevated Jonathan to you’re the you’re the CEO visionary of this
And it was it was a brilliant move
On both of theirs but in particular Scott Seaffeld’s part
Well to do that
And just I mean yeah it’s a great story like I’ve I’ve heard that before it still blows my mind
Like the the you know not to stroke his ego but like the amount of humility that you have to have to do that, right?
That’s just awesome. And and that, you know, that that really holds true for every business. And if you look at visionaries, their ability
To be humble, to have humility to say,
I don’t have a I don’t have everything figured out. Yeah. Or or there’s a better way or or change is okay. Change is good. Change can be good. Yeah.
That’s that’s the key to actually unlocking future growth and potential and getting what you want from your business.
Yeah. Well, you you touched on something funny earlier that like it’s kind of becoming a badge of honor to say like we run on EOS®.
Yes. Like I see this on a lot of businesses websites. There’s a residential builder in Chattanooga that I’m the integrator for and we’re searching for a new bookkeeper right now
And one of the companies I reached out to I was doing my research on them and then I found their COO and he had integrator in his title and had like the EOS® masterclass badge
And I’m not going to lie like I I’ve like I was like oh they run on EOS®. Okay, okay. It’s kind of become a funny like it makes sense.
Well, you know, it’s interesting because if you look at LinkedIn now, and I love this because it’s going to make things I think a lot more interesting for those of us who work in and around the EOS® community and the EOS® world. There’s the the little badge that you can put on your your profile picture that says hiring or open to work. Yeah.
And there’s now one that says,
You know, EOS® run on ELOS.
Oh, is there? Yeah, I noticed that. Just this literally this
Is the right font and the right. Is it the right orange? I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s EOS® certified necessarily or or you know it’s it’s something that has been vetted by EOS® but yes you and it’s interesting because they if you are using anything EOS® logo and that sort of thing you have to have first of all first and foremost permission of course
But also you have to use the right colors in the right font.
Sure. And who knows if it’s entrepreneurial operating system. I mean we were talking my my wife showed up with EOS® lotion. It’s evolution of soft.
Oh goodness. So it’s true. Like I almost brought it to our energy group. Like I I almost brought a bottle of that
And I and I use that. You know you talk about stories and and question you know how you present things. I ask when when I when I’m presenting or I’m doing a talk or I’m you know like down at the Nashville Entrepreneur Center. I’m doing attraction book club right now which I love to do. I love to and hopefully it’ll help some of these budding and and newly minted entrepreneurs and and those that are, you know, back kind of refreshing and and that sort of thing. But I always ask them when I come in, you know, we’re doing traction book club and and I know you’re interested, as an entrepreneur, but what do you know about EOS®?
What do you, you know, and I always ask the question of who’s really wellversed in EOS®, who kind of knows a little bit and who thinks it’s like a lotion or something else, you know, they have no clue what EOS® even stands for. Yeah.
And invariably, in different settings, I’ll get those who are like, “Yeah, Sure. Sure. I I used to work for a company called ProMax
And there’s just there’s a ton of Promaxes out there and there were even there were even two Promaxes adjacent industries both in Orange County, California. It was super confusing, right? And I actually rode the wave of it one time because I was in charge of our sales and marketing
And we had a big trade show, National Association of Broadcasters every April, I think it was, in in Las Vegas, and one of the years for our swag, I got the Promax energy bars. Like I reached out to the other Promax and they gave us like some crazy deal and you know, we had a thousand of those energy bars going into the show. We had like Promax bars for for eons after that. It was great. It was great.
Well, you know, we we we didn’t have energy bars, but when I was at Titus,
And this dates back to the year Oh, goodness. When I joined Titus, it was 2003, I think, initially.
Yeah. Yeah. 2004. Anyway, we had wine, Titus wine.
Okay. There is a Titus vineyard.
Okay. Nice. Nice. I believe in California. All right. Not 100% sure, but
I mean they’ve got a whole book in the Bible
And people they there there is a book in the Bible. They are they do have a book in the Bible. But they people thought
You do like finance and accounting consulting and you make wine. We’re like well no we it’s not actually our wine but it but it’s but we gave it away. We we bought it and and had it as a giveaway. But
And that was always fascinating. I think a long time ago. I I don’t know. I don’t know if they’ve kind of loosened on this or not, but I remember when I first became a integrator and got into kind of the whole EOS® world, I went through some certifications and whatnot. And I remember there was a a marketing requirement that you could not put that you were an EOS® integrator.
Mhm. Because there’s only one EOS® integrator and it was you know whoever’s the integrator for EOS® which is logical. It makes sense.
Oh yeah. It was this like nuance like I don’t I I’m pretty sure I’m the only person that ever read that little requirement. Wow.
Like I dork out on those details and u
So you you are not Kelly Knight. I’m not I’m clearly not Kelly Knight.
You are not the the EOS®.
I am not the But I’m not going to lie. I’m a little tempted to reach out to Evolution of Soft
And try to become their integrator so that I can actually put I am an EOS® integrator.
If you you have a a way to
It’s justified. Yeah, it’s justified.
And and EOS® runs on EOS®. I mean, what what better story would that would there be than that?
Actually, to come back to Margaret Apparently, this is our our podcast on Margaret. Hi, Margaret. I don’t know. No, to come back to Margaret, I remember cuz she had reached out and she was like, you know, we recruit a lot of integrators like like how do I find you people? And at first I was like, what do you mean you people?
That’s right. Us integrators, we’re a very touchy bunch. But, she didn’t know that either. I was like, well, you can’t actually put I’m an EOS® integrator on your LinkedIn. And It blew her mind.
Yeah. And it’s similar to you know our our energy group.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It started out Forest Dur. Shout out to Forest. Yeah.
Great integrator. Really passionate about being an integrator, running companies, working within with EOS®.
When he first started Energy, which was I believe about four years ago now.
Yeah. He started it out as ENRG, EOS® networking resource group. Yeah.
And EOS® said, “No, you’re not licensed to use the EOS® name, you know, the EOS® logo.” And so he changed it to Entrepreneurial Networking Resource Group. And I think
Honestly for me that that’s a great move. It was good that that happened because
Energy is not intended to be exclusive to EOS®.
Sure. But it is EOS® inspired and it does benefit entrepreneurs. Yeah. And that’s exactly what it the title says.
And now EOS® licensed.
That’s right. And now EOS® licensed. So who knows? They may change it back.
That’s true. That’s true. Actually, I might be able to now. I never thought about that.
But yeah, it’s it’s you you as an implement I am obviously licensed.
Yeah. And I’ve been through I I I own my own practice. I am part of the EOS® Worldwide
Sure. Community. Yeah. And so I’m able to use the logos and everything, but but at the point in time when I step out of
Not that I’m going to, but if I did step out of being an implement, that’ll be my retirement.
Yeah. And that’s way down the road. So, actually,
I wouldn’t I wouldn’t use the logos and stuff. Yeah. The way I do now.
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And it’s funny like with that kind of stuff, I always like, you know, and I always judge others for being, oh, you’re too protective and like, but if it’s my stuff, I’m like, whoa, hold on. That’s right.
Like I always give myself the the the extra like grace. And other people, I’m like, ah, why why are you trying to protect that? It’s it’s a funny thing we humans do. We’ve talked a lot about EOS®. There may be some people that don’t know it. How do you frame out how do you describe EOS® to people?
You know, it really depends. Probably depends on the set the the setting I’m in. Okay. I may describe it a hundred times and it may be a 100 different ways.
What if you’re at a all fictitious scenario, a podcast studio in a Walmart in Franklin, Tennessee?
Wow, that is a wild one.
That’s a very specific
That is very specific and and so random.
I know, right? As I look out at the Walmart outside the the podcast window, EOS®, first and foremost, I mean, of course, it stands for entrepreneurial operating system.
Okay? And, EOS® is a, you know, in a nutshell, it’s a way of executing on your business for for business owners. Yeah. To help them get what they want from their business. That’s that’s the long and short of it.
It it helps them gain clarity. It helps them reduce frustration. It helps them clarify for themselves and others what they want from the business.
Yeah. And you know they they have an idea. They have an idea of what their vision is for the business, but they don’t always communicate it.
And so it’s a way of getting everyone on the same page with, you know, this is what this is who we are. This is what our vision is for this thing. Yeah.
And this is how we’re going to get it.
Yeah. You know, the way that we’re going to get it. And that’s what that’s what EOS® is.
Yeah. It it it helps business owners get, you know, it’s interesting because I was just in a couple of weeks ago at our our QC, our annual QC,
Okay, which is that’s a quarterly collaborative exchange and that’s where all the impleers get together.
Well, the annual we all do it together. We had over 700 of the 870 plus impleers at the conference in Orlando. It was a full day
And we had a fireside chat and we had the OGs.
Okay. I mean, we had Gino Wickman, creator of EOS®. We had Don Tenny, his first integrator. Yeah.
And who is still an implement? And Mike Payton, who is an OG imple.
Yeah. And they’re they’re fantastic and they’re so funny together. But we talked about these things and one of the ways that Gino put it is you know what EOS® does is it helps business owners solve their problem of being ignorant and you know frustrated with their business. Okay. And ignorant not being
So if you’re an ignorant entrepreneur.
Well, and and not ignorant in in terms of being disrespectful, but
But in terms of not just not knowing what to do.
Yeah. You know, it’s like it helps when I talk about clarity. It gives you clarity of what to do.
Yeah. You’re not coming in thinking I I feel like I’m shooting blanks here. I’m I’m I’m trying everything and it’s not working. Well, one one way I always look at it is like there’s a a thousand different business books out there.
And it’s like, okay, there’s there’s a lot of through lines. There’s a lot of common threads. But I I think that what what EOS® does really well is it distills all of that down into kind of six core concepts.
And to me, it’s just a a group of of ideas and tools. So it’s like there’s a concept okay you know data as example you know that’s the there’s an idea of you know a business should have objective measurable something you know some way to measure you know taking your temperature something objective and measurable to inform you on good bad ugly indifferent whatever hopefully as we all talk about you know we all want predictive metrics sometimes it’s it’s a score. Sometimes it’s a predictive metric, a leading indicator. But the idea is you should have some kind of measurable and the tool that EOS® has is the scorecard.
Right. Right. So I just look at it as you know it it just kind of gives a real blueprint of all these thousands of different ideas out there and distills them down to here are the six core components. Here are the tools to support those six core components.
That’s right. Yeah. And and data, you know, taking data as an example.
Yeah. You don’t you don’t
Make decisions on gut feel, which you do as an entrepreneur. So, it’s it’s it’s combating that. It’s saying, “Let’s take objective information to make our decisions rather than gut feel because gut feel
Only goes so far.”
Sure. And well, but it’s also how most of the entrepreneurs got to where they’re at.
Exactly. Right. They got there because of gut feel. And you know, and that as they’re as they start out and they’re growing Their gut is important. It’s a big part of it’s part of it’s who they are and and it’s how they they operate. But at some point,
Their operating system, their way of doing business is going to run its course and they’re going to hit a ceiling where they can’t break through. Yeah. And they’re operating their personal operating system won’t work anymore. So that’s where they need help.
Now, it’s interesting that you point out, you know, the distilling all those threads and everything. Gino did not create something in a vacuum and he didn’t create something that he didn’t invent.
No. No. And it is it’s fascinating to me to to if you go back and you write you kind of look at how he did it and why he did it.
Yeah. Now, a big part of why he did it was because he saw the pain. He saw the frustration. He saw the you know the things that
Business owners were not able to get in their businesses. And he’s like there’s a, you know, but then he also saw if if he looked at a hundred different businesses, maybe five of them
Were doing well. Yeah.
And 95 of them were struggling in one way or another. Some succeeding by chance, you know, here and there.
Yeah. And then he he so he looked at those five and what what are they doing? Why why are they successful? And then he he was a student of all these other books and philosophies and all these other processes and and ways of of doing things
And he did distill it down.
Yeah. And and he said these are the the timeless concepts. Yeah. They they’ve been around for forever. So he didn’t invent the concepts. He just took them and then he said, “Okay,
Here’s what’s most important out of this
And here are some practical tools that will help you implement, you know, and and improve and and strengthen, you know, the concepts that you’ve got in your business.”
Yeah. And that’s where he kind of put together EOS® and he what I love about it is you know, you’ve got a a leadership team manual sitting next to you. Well, in that leadership team manual, if you go to the, you know, the basically the landing page, the first page, he calls out those that he wants to recognize. Yeah.
Because he did not do this on his own.
Yep. There’s like Jim Collins, Mansion,
I’m blanking on some of the others, but
Yeah. I mean, he he he borrows, you know, he takes concepts from Steven Cvy and you know, there there are a host of others. Sure. And then there are those that were part of the EOS® community. You know Dubet and and Boore and all these others that you know and of course then you have Dant Tenny and Mike Payton and and others that that were around and you know helped shape and and as he did this but and and and the interesting thing I I tell people too is is a lot of times there’s a book that’s written and it’s somebody’s conceptual idea of what they want to put on paper and they write it and then they create a methodology out of it.
Yeah. Well, it’s the flip. It’s the reverse in this situation. Gino created EOS®.
He was implementing EOS®
For clients and then he decided, you know, this is not something that I want to be proprietary.
Yeah. That no one can have access to unless they come to me or my organization. So that’s why he wrote the book Traction. Yeah.
He put it together and then he gave it to the world basically. And you can do with it what you want.
Sure. Yeah. Well, I it’s it’s interesting. You know, when I when I look at what works and what doesn’t work within EOS®, and I’ve been part of both. You know, it’s the there’s there’s the six core components, right? What is it? Vision, traction, people, data, issues, process.
Yeah. All all the things. And you know the I remember when I first was introduced to EOS®, it was through a Vistage group that I was in. This is probably circa 2017, 2018 out in Southern California.
And and it just gave a lot of language to what me as the integrator I was I think my title was COO and the owner what we were doing. It just gave us a lot of language. Like I read it and I was like it was like oh my gosh how do they know all this about what we’re doing.
It kind of freaked me out but it gave me common language with my team and tools and I actually kind of screwed that that one up. Right. It was my first time using it. And what I did is and I think this is common. I I read I read traction. I’m like yep got it.
I know how to do this.
It’s simple. No problem. And I and I was I was I was sort of right. Right. I was I was right-ish. The concepts all made sense. What I did in that business that was ultimately a real mistake is I took the concepts but not the tools. Like I I sort of implemented the tools but not in the way that EOS® created them. So like I over complicated you know I over complicated scorecard and I made minor adjustments of the accountability chart that was not really it was more people based right that’s a classic one. Yeah.
I what else did I do? I changed up the whole like quarterly conversation one to one like that whole thing I was just like oh I could do this better. So I I locked into the concepts, but it it took me failing there and coming and and being an integrator at a a construction company that was a software company. Then I went and became an integrator for a construction company here in Middle Tennessee. And that’s where I really started embracing the tools of EOS®.
Right. What do in in your experience like where have you where have you seen companies and people mess up EOS®?
That’s you know you call out several instances several things where they think they can improve on it.
Yeah. You know as implementers we think it’s perfect.
Yeah. I mean there’s no such thing as perfection but in a in an imperfect world and when you have other alternatives it is the perfect solution for us.
And that’s why we do it. That’s why we are implementers EOS® impleers and not implementers or some of something else.
Yeah. You know it’s going in and and saying I’m going to you know I’m not going to worry about you know as we implement I I really don’t want to focus on that you know I don’t want to focus on that I would rather do something different
Rather than follow the formula sure the interesting thing about EOS® is it is
The brilliance to me is is not just in the the system and the key components and how that that is how you solve issues and everything. It’s the way it’s laid out and the way it’s it’s the way it is the the implementation is ordered
Through the process over time. You know, one of the one of the things that I I I see visionaries do
That is a mistake is say I vision is what’s important to me.
Yeah. I don’t want to work on traction. I don’t want to work on structure first. I want to work on my vision.
Yeah. And they get a you know, they get you know, I’ve I’ve actually had to persuade
Put a little general persuasion into we’re going to do We’re going to do traction first.
Yep. And then, you know, Sure.
Because the thing is when when you do vision first, it’s it’s you know, you can you can do that.
Yeah. But what happens is
You you come up with your vision and then you sit and you marinate in it and then it loses its luster.
Yeah. And it does nothing. It doesn’t do it doesn’t get you down the road.
Well, traction is also, you know, traction is where I see teams get engaged.
Mh. And you know the you need it’s not a system about a person. It’s not a system about a visionary. You know it’s about getting more out of your team. And you know the rest of the team is is typically when you go through the traction stuff that’s where they’re like a finally like we’re putting like yeah we get where we’re like we’re putting meat on the bones here. And it’s much more it’s much more tactical. Which typically engages most employees more from what I’ve seen.
Yeah, it is. And I kind of liken it to think about a locomotive,
Your your vision being the big train engine. Yeah. You know, well, that’s great. You can build it. Yeah.
But if you don’t have the tracks that you’ve laid,
It’s not going to go anywhere.
Sure. It’ll sit and spin.
Yeah. But it won’t do anything. And so your vision has no has no you have no ability to execute on your vision until you have traction.
Yeah. And traction is just it is the f the framework, the foundation for putting your vision into place, you know, and and making it work. It’s the discipline and accountability that you need to put into place on the front end. Yeah.
To then drive your vision into.
Okay. And and we always start with structure as well because that’s that’s the foundation for you know how are we going to do this?
And and when you take you know structure being your accountability chart if you alter that then you you take away the power of the accountability chart because it’s all about accountability. Yeah.
Who’s accountable for what? Who once we know what needs to be done? Well, who’s accountable for each of those things?
Sure. And if you just go to people, and and if you go people before structure, your people may not be, you know, they may not they may be great, but they may not be great for you. Because they’re not in the right seats and because you haven’t defined the right seats. You defined the people, not the seats. Man, it I’ve got I’ve got so much passion around this one because you know ultimately and this part’s just my opinion like the the right person, right seat. I I love having a a tools to measure that.
I love, you know, looking through core values, looking through GWC lens. Because when you do that and you’re honest with it, what I’ve seen play out is when I look at somebody that that isn’t a right person, right seat, what invariably happens, and I’ve seen this many times, is that person just kind of sucks in that role. Like we call them lots of things, you know, wrong person, wrong seat, or yeah, they’re a B player, C player, whatever. There’s lots of things that we we label them as. But what what I’ve seen happen that’s heartbreaking is you know when you are not a right person in the right seat like just by default you kind of suck at your job.
And I remember a a company I came on board with I’ll kind of keep it generic but this gal this is I’ve seen this more than once but this is a few companies back and this gal when I showed up she was the bookkeeper and no training in bookkeeping. She was just kind of stuck in that role and she just kind of did it. It was a job, right? And I remember kind of peeling back some of the layers and like okay, we’re seeing poor performance. Why we do these measurements, you know, do you get want and have the capacity to do this role? She didn’t have any bookkeeping background.
Okay, there’s some capacity issues there. She didn’t really have skill in it, any natural talent or ability. But, you know, to me, I’m always looking in in situations like that. Does she want it?
Yeah. And I remember kind of quickly realizing this this gal had you know, never really had a coach or or guide kind of in in the vocational part of her life. And I remember asking her, hey, what are you going to call me when you’re 40 years old? What are you going to call me and be like, Nathaniel, thank you for putting me on this path? And I was like, “Are you going to call me and thank you thank me for putting you on an accounting path?” And she was like, “Absolutely not.” And like the problem is if she had stayed in there, if the the tools hadn’t existed to identify that to give language to it that was comfortable, we we wouldn’t be able to have an uncomfortable conversation of, “Hey, this isn’t the right fit.” And she would have I’ve and I’ve seen this.
God, I’ve seen this with so many people. She could have just as easily stayed in that role for 10 years and just kind of always assumed that she was eh an okay employee
And you know we worked together. She identified what she wanted to do. She we wound up tuning her resume. She found a job doing that and then she started getting promoted like I I was able to run into her and talk to her later and she got promoted up through that cuz she got into a job where she was the right person right seat started thriving and that changes your whole inner dialogue from like h I just kind of suck at stuff to like wow I’m a really capable powerful person right
And it’s just it’s it’s gamechanging
Well and when you have people that are the tools allow you and and we say The answers are always in the tools. Yeah. The answers are are in the room,
But they’re in the tools. You know, I mean, that’s where that’s where we find the answers to to all the issues we have.
And when someone is a right person, so they are aligned with your core values. They fit your culture like a glove and everybody loves them, but they’re in the wrong seat. There is a just a huge level of frustration on all parts. Yeah.
Nobody’s happy. Yeah. Nobody’s truly happy.
Yeah. And they’re going to be happier if that person is not in that seat. And that’s not to be mean or anything like that. They’re not great at their job. And so let’s either if we have another seat, let’s see if there is another seat that we’ve in our structure.
We’re not going to create something that doesn’t shouldn’t be there. Sure. But if there is another seat where that person GWC’s it want it, have the capacity to do it. They’re great at they love it. They’re great at it. And you know, they they are capable Yeah. Of consistently executing at a high level. Let’s do that. Let’s do that. And that’s that’s the greater that’s for the greater good of the of everybody in the organization. The alternative, you know, if we don’t have the right person, then there’s a a different issue. You know, there’s a culture issue. So, there’s
A problem that may be tough to to
Make a decision on, but has to be made. What the tools do in those situations is they allow you to take kind of that emotional element out of it. Not to say that you you’re un unemotional in ter is emotional. It always is emotional when you’re dealing with people,
But you’re able to make decisions that don’t are not driven by emotion.
Well, it’s I don’t know if you’ve ever read the book Crucial Conversations.
Yeah. And I was going to say Yeah. Crucial conversations. There’s another one, radical cander.
Sure. Yep. You know, having it allows you to have radical cander, but crucial conversations is something I and I did read the book just within the last six months or so.
So good. So one of the the things in crucial conversations that the the tools specifically you know the people analyzer and GWC when you put those together and you look through that lens of right person right seat what what I feel like it it’s done for me in a lot of my conversations is what crucial conversations talks about is rather than you know I have a problem with you
It’s here in the middle of us is the problem
Right separate from the two of us and the the U people analyzer GWC allows us to look at whether it’s a cultural fit core values issue or GWC issue it allows us to depersonalize it which allows us to be kind of in a safer spot of ideiation
Where you know it’s not it’s not about me versus Connor or whomever or Connor versus Nathaniel it’s hey here’s there’s a there’s a a right person right seat issue. Here’s what I’m seeing. And that concept from Crucial Conversations where it’s like, okay, put something in the middle of you and focus on fixing that thing in the middle is just like like that that was mindblowing for me.
Yeah. And you bring up a a good point and it it kind of drives into one of the one of the focuses we have the in EOS® which is team health.
Yeah. And as you work with your team and you build that health which is the you know ability to be you know collaborative to be open and honest with each other. Yeah.
It it’s it’s critical that you have a a level of vulnerability and trust
Yeah. Sure. And vulnerability based trust
With your teams. Now, you don’t get there overnight.
It takes time to get there, but when when you’re open and honest with each other and you trust you have that level of trust, you’re able to do things like that. You’re able to put this and say, “Okay, you know, we’re going to be open and honest with each other.
There’s this issue that we need to talk about.” Yeah.
And and both parties can acknowledge Yes. Yes. It’s an issue
And no one comes away feeling attacked.
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s that’s important.
Yeah. Want to shift gears just a little bit. So one of the what I think is kind of achilles heel of of EOS®. And I don’t want it to be, but you know, you read the book Rocket Fuel,
And u you know, it’s it it states that for every four visionaries, there’s one integrator.
How, you know, I I’ve seen this problem play out in real life. How did how do you reconcile that? Like what how do you fill in that integrator seat in a world where it’s a 4:1 ratio? It’s a great question and it is a pervasive challenge I would say for visionaries for companies to know that the integrator seat
It’s the most challenging seat to fill.
Okay. So, I’m not crazy when I feel that way. Okay.
We’re not crazy. This is a this is a definitive challenge.
Yeah. And and it is something that and and what makes it even more challenging is you can have someone who is a great integrator at company A who is a horrible integrator at company B
For various reasons. Now that is part of the part of the challenge of the integrator role is not just I mean the role in and of itself or the the the seat the the accountabilities the f the roles of the seat
Well they’re different there are threads that run through integrator
You know seats and different organizations but every organization the great thing about EOS® is there’s nothing we don’t there’s it’s not prescriptive
Sure it is a framework that within that framework the company decides what’s best for us.
Yeah. You know, we we we understand this framework. Now, we’re going to figure out what what is an integrator look like for us. And they may not know what they don’t know. So, sometimes they may tweak it and and it may evolve over time, but that’s where having a little bit of expertise from the outside helps.
Yeah. Whether it be an implementer or a fractional integrator who kind of gives them some guidance on here’s what you know what I suggest or here’s some things I’m from my experience or a
A talent firm like a Titus and there there are others obviously
Who you know at at Titus when I was with Titus we probably place 30 to 40 integrators a year
And that’s a lot
That is a lot
And you know so they’re they’re good at it, but that doesn’t mean they’re perfect at it. Nobody is. And
Because it is a very challenging position. Now,
It’s interesting because it sparked something when you were talking about Margaret earlier and how she when she talked to you, it’s like, how do I figure out, you know, who’s because not everybody and it and it is true.
Yeah. When you look at resumes or LinkedIn, you look at profiles, they don’t always say I’m an integrator. Sometimes they’ll use the more corporate titles, the more org chart titles of COO or chief of staff or president. And that’s the interesting thing. That’s the beauty of the integrator. It it is not a COO. Yeah.
It is not one thing.
Yeah. It is much to me it’s much more than a COO.
Yeah. I think it’s a lot more defined in my opinion. It’s a lot more specific than a COO.
It is. But it but it is also has a lot more responsibility. It’s not just operations.
Yeah. I mean you are you are facilitating you know basically you are driving accountability among the the leaders of marketing and sales and operations and however many operations leaders there are and finance and HR and IT depending on the size of the organization what all they have in terms of major functions
You are driving accountability and integ integrating how they work operate. So you have to know you have to be able to work with all those moving parts and make it work
And as you run the business. Yeah.
So you’re running you’re the glue. You’re running the business. Yep.
You’re glue you know you’re the glue that is holding everything together.
And that’s why visionaries
Love or hate integrators. You know it’s they they need integrators. They need someone to do that because visionary type a classic visionary is not the person to do that and they’ll tell you very quickly I’m I’m great at this. I’m great at selling this business or or executing this but I’m not great at running business. Sure. You know, so that’s why they need that. Now, not the the interesting point and I and I what I would say about what Margaret said is yeah, the you can’t always recognize it, but that also means that it’s not in a box.
Yeah. And so the integrator can be a lot can come out of a lot of different disciplines.
I’ve seen integrators before that were CFOs previously.
Yeah. Yeah. Or had head of sales is typically more visionary type but sometimes
F you know but finance operations you know etc. It’s funny. I I I do integrator coaching is one of the services my company offers.
And I recently coached a gal who was who was part of a multi-level marketing product and did real well with that and had you know it was it was very impressive. Had never worked within EOS®. She had run her own business, you know, within that framework and everything. And working with her very capable leader, very capable manager and you know, she was able to you know, with a little bit of help and direction really become a great EOS® integrator very quickly. Very quickly. Because it is a pretty solid framework to work from. It’s just, you know, she skipped all of the the mistakes that I made along the way of reading traction, be like, “Cool, I got it.”
Yeah. Done. Well, and and you know, ego of course can get in the way and that sort of thing, but the you know raising up integrators is really what we need to focus on.
Yeah. So we need to focus because of that because of those statistics that are that that
You know we read about in in rocket fuel we need to make sure that we are creating and minting in strong integrators. So the coaching side of it I think that is important. I’m actually surprised it it is one of the things that I surprises me about EOS® that there’s a lot and I get this part there’s a lot of emphasis on implementers but to me there’s a as much if not more so of need of of integrators
And you need both right like you re you really do need both u but
If you are going to create rocket fuel then you absolutely have to have a strong integrator to to partner with that vision Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m I hope, you know, this is a call out to EOS® or something. I’m not sure. But I I do hope that there’s more, you know, kind of official EOS® brand. Like I’m an integrator. I would love to be a certified. I mean, I’ve got I’ve gone to the master class and all that stuff, but like, you know, I’ I’d love if
If they attacked that problem of like, how do we create how do we change that 4:1 to 2:1?
Yeah. You know what I mean? Which I’m sure they’re talking about. I don’t know. But, but
Yeah. And I Yeah. I don’t know. I I don’t I don’t have I don’t have insight into that. I do know that Gino Wickman has a high degree of respect for integrators and what they do, what they bring to the table.
Sure. Yeah. You know considering himself you know kind of among those ranks at some point and you know it’s
I think the coaching side of it one thing I will say is for visionaries looking to to bring on or to promote or to have somebody if they if they have a an open seat
In their accountability chart being the integrator seat. It is it is very challenging to promote from within.
It really is. And and there’s a there’s a couple of reasons for that. I mean, think about, you know, you you are in the business and you’re you’re a peer to these all these other people on the leadership team and then suddenly you’re going to be elevated to the position of integrator.
Yeah. And they’re going to be reporting to you.
Yeah. So there’s that dynamic that makes it challenging, but then also just
The the likelihood of saying this is our integrator seat. This is what we’re looking for. This is what someone needs to GWC. And then having that specific person
Who actually does Yeah. Legitimately GWC that seat sitting in the organization,
It’s going to be fairly rare. Yeah. I would say sure now they may be able to pivot and adjust and and work into it
In some some ways as long as they you know gee and as long as they get it and then they want it they have to really want it
Capacity you could argue that you know they could be coached into that
Sure to a certain extent and it may take time
And that’s poss that’s a possibility so the alternative is you hire from outside.
Yeah. And then there are challenges with that.
Absolutely. And and you know, people don’t when when we’re talking about entrepreneurial businesses,
We’re not talking about companies that have such deep pockets that they can afford to make a lot of mistakes.
Sure. Financially. Yeah. It’s a huge impact. And so we have to be very frugal and very very deliberate in in our decision making. This is what pushed me into what I do now because I do integrating services. So I do you know one day a week integrator or integrator coaching. Those are kind of the two main things I do right now with my company Quail. But what drove me to it is, you know, I had done W2 full-time integrator work, but you know, it it’s a it’s not a cheap salary,
Right? You know and and what I felt genuinely bad about at the companies that I was at was it’s like oh now we need a a sales expert or a marketing expert or this expert or that expert HR whatever it is and you know I I found that you know especially smaller companies and it depends on the company how much revenue size all that stuff but you know if if you can you know I know in peer groups there’s a lot of talk of like, oh, you need a COO, you need a COO, bring in COO, run on EOS®, everything will be fixed. But a lot of small companies have to run as well, if not better than much larger organizations.
And you kind of I’ve seen in more than one case. I’ve seen it with myself and visionaries I worked for. I’ve seen it with with friends in in very similar situations where kind of they they u spend all of their budget on the magical COO and there’s a whole lot of other things that need to be fixed and done as well. And it was that’s why I kind of stepped into more of hey let me come in and do the heavy lifting early on
So you can as a visionary figure out what works and what doesn’t work. Yeah. Like, man, there’s a that home builder down in Chattanooga that I work with right now. I I I love the visionary. Great dude, good friend. I know so much more about what he needs for from an integrator than I because I’ve been doing it for six months for him.
Yeah, I know so much more. And you know, I’ll I’ll be with him for another, you know, six months or so. I don’t know, but it doesn’t matter. But like now I can I’ve done the heavy lifting of getting them in a really healthy spot. Now we’ve got clarity. He’s actually experienced. Oh, here’s what matters to me. Here’s what doesn’t matter to me.
And yeah, it’s it’s it’s an interesting conundrum, but but yeah, it’s it’s I I always go back in my head to that like 4:1 ratio and I’m like, we got to fix that.
Yeah, we got to fix that. Well, and and I think that’s why, you know, it’s it’s so important what you do in terms of the fractional, but also the coaching side of things because you do you are able to go in and on a from a fractional perspective, you’re able to show not only do the job, but you’re able to show the visionary what it what it looks like,
What it should look like. I mean, what what should they be thinking about
Because that’s how most people learn, right? You learn by observing by sitting shouldertosh shoulder and like
But I I think most people learn that way.
Yeah. And and the the full-time person
You know there are varying statistics about the the cost of of a bad hire.
Yeah. You know I I think most of them are probably
Is very scary. Yeah. It’s scary. But most of them are probably on the conservative side. They don’t really show the the you know it’s it’s a multi it’s a multiple of of you know what you your salary for that person
Because there’s a lot of you you lose time you lose energy you lose confidence you lose a lot of stuff that you can’t even quantify at times
But it’s important for them to to be able to make to have confidence in hiring or promoting And if it’s, you know, if you’re showing them that, you know, what it looks like, then then when they see it, when they kind of experience it in terms of the hiring process, then they can have confidence that they’re they’re getting the right person. Yeah.
And then also if there is a a person internally,
Yeah. That they’ve either hired or they’re promoting. You could come in, you know, coming in and coaching that person is is such a value ad Yeah. Kind of service that the visionaries may not even know they have or they they could have.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it it’s hard to know until you’re actually in the organization. It’s just so hard to know.
Yeah. U Yeah. I I I have I specifically identified people early on in clients that I’m like, “Oh, that could be the integrator, you know, four months later it’s like, nope,
Absolutely not.” Well, and it’s and it’s interesting because, you know, I know at one point you you and I had this conversation about the difference between self-implementing and and implementing with an imple.
Sure. The flip of that for me is implementing with a company that has an integrator in place and one that doesn’t.
Yeah. Yeah. Or has the wrong integrator in place and then has a strong integrator in place. Huge difference.
Oh yeah. Huge difference.
And it it the difference is not just in amanability, you know, how receptive they are and that sort of thing. It’s also the discipline and accountability. Sure, there’s a difference in discipline and accountability in an organization and and I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way, but where the visionary is driving discipline and accountability versus an integrator driving discipline and accountability because they do it differently.
Oh, big time. Very different. And so it is even for the smaller companies there are options to have an integrator either in place or fractional or something.
Sure. That will help. Yeah.
And and it doesn’t have to break the bank. But you know I mean there is a cost element.
Absolutely. You you get what you pay for. And I’ve said that all along. I’ve I’ve as I’ve worked through helping companies hire integrators in the past when they are wanting to put it in a box of well we’re willing to pay this
I’m like well you may need to expand you know you may need to open your mind a little bit because when we get the right person that’s the person you need yeah and they will help you they there will be a return on that investment with them.
Yeah. Yeah. Abs 100%.
Love it. Well, one, this has been an awesome conversation. Ironically, we do need to wrap up. I I I’ve got a, I’m coaching an integrator in, an hour and 15 minutes.
And I’m coaching my grandson in the little league in a few hours from now.
Okay. Okay. How’s he doing?
He’s He’s awesome. He’s great. He’s doing great.
Yeah, that’s great. But man, thank you for joining me. This is awesome.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah. And if anybody needs to get a hold of you, how do they how do how does somebody find you?
I’m on LinkedIn. My email address is easy. It’s just connor c o n.penson p i nso n p as in paul eosorldwide.com.
Love it. Easy. Love it. And you work with
I work with EOS® worldwide.
You work with entrepreneurs.
Client base. Yes, I work. So, yes,
Sorry I gave you the dot dot dot and didn’t no context.
I work with I work with you know entrepreneurial businesses. So, entrepreneurs, business owners, you know, the leadership teams.
Yeah. Yeah. And and that includes everybody on the leadership team that and I’m a you know, I coach the whole leadership team. You know, sweet spot of 10 to 250 employees. Yeah.
Any industry. Cool. Love it.
